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Thread: Bad Genetics?

  1. #26
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    Hey Off Road, do you really gotta mess with everyone? That question could have very well been asked in a respective and curteous manner.
    Last edited by skhandelwal; 03-06-2010 at 10:23 AM.

  2. #27
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skhandelwal View Post
    Hey Off Road, do you really gotta mess with everyone? That question could have very well been asked in a respective and curteous manner.
    I'm not sure that I "mess with everyone." However, you may be correct. So...

    Pigout,

    I am unclear how what Allen suggested is different than what the OP is currently doing? Also, some of the terms that Allen uses are unfamiliar to me. I've asked Allen about them before, but I still remain somewhat confused. Since you seem to understand it better than I, would you mind clearing it up for me?

    Thanks,
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  3. #28
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    I am unclear how what Allen suggested is different than what the OP is currently doing? Also, some of the terms that Allen uses are unfamiliar to me. I've asked Allen about them before, but I still remain somewhat confused.

    Thanks,
    Off Road
    What exactly are you confused about?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Manley View Post
    youre 156 lbs, there is such a thing as too much.
    Obviously there is such a thing as WAY TOO MUCH.
    But 8-12 sets on an arms day DEFINITELY IS'NT
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  5. #30
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    What exactly are you confused about?
    First of all, you have enough knowledge and experience to back up your posts, so I always end up learning something even if we disagree. On the other hand, I'm not so sure Pigout has the same credentials to just throw everybody's opinion aside. So, I was mainly calling him out to see if he could back it up.

    But, while we are on the subject, I am confused about a few things...

    You told the OP, in order to train for aesthetics, he should be doing 12 sets for the muscle groups and use a mixture of barbells, dumbbells, and cables. But, The OP is already doing exactly that and not seeing the results.

    You go on to say that a bicep should be trained from many angles and ranges of movement. As far as I know, the bicep closes the elbow joint, so any movement that creates that closure will stimulate the bicep. The amount of muscle fiber that is recruited during that closure will depend on different factors. You say those factors are best when using quality repetitions or as you put it "proper stimulation," Others say they come from getting stronger and your ability to recruit those fibers grow as you get stronger.

    Lastly, you use a term a lot, "surfing the curve." I have absolutely no idea what that means.
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  6. #31
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    But, while we are on the subject, I am confused about a few things...

    You told the OP, in order to train for aesthetics, he should be doing 12 sets for the muscle groups and use a mixture of barbells, dumbbells, and cables. But, The OP is already doing exactly that and not seeing the results.

    You go on to say that a bicep should be trained from many angles and ranges of movement. As far as I know, the bicep closes the elbow joint, so any movement that creates that closure will stimulate the bicep. The amount of muscle fiber that is recruited during that closure will depend on different factors. You say those factors are best when using quality repetitions or as you put it "proper stimulation," Others say they come from getting stronger and your ability to recruit those fibers grow as you get stronger.

    Lastly, you use a term a lot, "surfing the curve." I have absolutely no idea what that means.
    I didnt mean 12 sets is exactly what he should do but if he had an arm day that meny sets was fine.

    Yes the bicep closes the elbow joint, but just doing that won't automatically cause more growth. When I say proper stimulation I mean contracting the muscle on the way up and resisting the eccecntric with the same muscle not just lift the weight, huge difference.
    Many people tend do just curl weight up and loose tension in the muscle as well use the anterior delt and leverage to curl it up if the weight is too heavy which takes away from the targeted muscle so you end up loosing tension. As i always say for pure hypertrophy training train the muscle and focus on quality reps and strength will come but if you just focus on putting more weight on the bar it takes away from the quality of the rep and you end up using leverage and other muscles to perform the lift.

    When I say "surfing the curve" I mean the strength curve. You have multiple rep ranges on the strength curve along with what each rep range is for.

  7. #32
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    I didnt mean 12 sets is exactly what he should do but if he had an arm day that meny sets was fine.

    Yes the bicep closes the elbow joint, but just doing that won't automatically cause more growth. When I say proper stimulation I mean contracting the muscle on the way up and resisting the eccecntric with the same muscle not just lift the weight, huge difference.

    When I say "surfing the curve" I mean the strength curve. You have multiple rep ranges on the strength curve along with what each rep range is for.
    Oh, the "strength curve." So you're saying you should work all the rep ranges [for hypertrophy] over a period of time? I've seen you use that term many times, now I kind of get it. Thanks. Do you think a lifter should schedule the different rep ranges into their training schedule, or do you think they should start light (high reps) and end heavy (low reps)? From these conversations we have I will assume that it is programmed?

    I agree with you on the controlled rep speed, but I also think that the poundage progression should be of utmost priority given that you don't throw the weights around and keep that controlled rep speed. So when I say workout for strength, I don't mean at the expense of form and rep speed, just that there should be constant progression of the weight being used. I've just seen too many guys try to get big by working too many different lifts, trying to hit all the angles and getting nowhere. On the flip side, I've seen a ton of guys abbreviate their routine, focus on weight progression, and start making steady long term progress in both size and strength.
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  8. #33
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    Oh, the "strength curve." So you're saying you should work all the rep ranges [for hypertrophy] over a period of time? I've seen you use that term many times, now I kind of get it. Thanks. Do you think a lifter should schedule the different rep ranges into their training schedule, or do you think they should start light (high reps) and end heavy (low reps)? From these conversations we have I will assume that it is programmed?

    I agree with you on the controlled rep speed, but I also think that the poundage progression should be of utmost priority given that you don't throw the weights around and keep that controlled rep speed. So when I say workout for strength, I don't mean at the expense of form and rep speed, just that there should be constant progression of the weight being used. I've just seen too many guys try to get big by working too many different lifts, trying to hit all the angles and getting nowhere. On the flip side, I've seen a ton of guys abbreviate their routine, focus on weight progression, and start making steady long term progress in both size and strength.
    Yes you should use all rep ranges from 5 to 20+ depending on the program and you can even surf the curve during one program if laid out correctly. I hate using the terms light and heavy as whatever rep range you use the weight should be challenging for that rep range so regardless of the amount of weight it should always for the most part be heavy and challenging in whatever rep range you use.

    There are many ways to program rep ranges and its dependent on the goal of the individual. Someone training for hypertrophy should stay mopre towards one end and someone training for strength should stay more towards the other, but all should be used at some point.

    The amount of weight is important in that it is challenging and pushes you at or near failure but I don't like people who are training to just focus on the number just on pushing themselves and targeting the muscle. I find they get stronger as a by product but the workouts are much more intense and they experience greater development. But weight should always be challenging and if you can increase weight then do so as long as you can maintain form. But also just because the weight doesn't increase doesn't mean you are not growing or stimulating muscle tissue and breaking it down.

    I just focus more on internal cues and not as much on external ones. I have more of a qualitative approach than quantitative.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealDeal930 View Post
    Obviously there is such a thing as WAY TOO MUCH.
    But 8-12 sets on an arms day DEFINITELY IS'NT

    That depends on how much chest and back work you have already done. Most back movements involve biceps to some degree and most chest work (excepting flyes and crossovers which aren't exactly known for building optimum mass or strength) involves triceps.

    And while we are on the topic...assuming someone is under 170-200 lbs (depending on height and frame) I'm not sure that having a day devoted to arms is the best strategy assuming your goals are size and strength. And this is especially so if you have limited time to spend in the gym as most of us do.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 03-07-2010 at 10:59 PM.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post

    And while we are on the topic...assuming someone is under 170-200 lbs (depending on height and frame) I'm not sure that having a day devoted to arms is the best strategy assuming your goals are size and strength. And this is especially so if you have limited time to spend in the gym as most of us do.
    Limited time in the gym is a big factor but bodyweight has nothing to with it .

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    Limited time in the gym is a big factor but bodyweight has nothing to with it .

    So if someone is six foot four but only 150 lbs soaking wet and his goals are to get big and strong...you don't think that advising him to eat lots and focus on the compounds as a starting point is any more relevant then advising him to to have an arm day as one?


    Point being that for someone with those kinds of stats, putting him on a training program that's designed to train the entire body 2-3 times a week (which is usual in programs that focus on compounds (SS, Bill Starr, Peary Rader..) is probably more efficient than one that trains body parts in isolation once a week. Now if you are five foot two and weight 150 lbs, then you are probably okay. Which is why I added height and frame qualifiers.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 03-07-2010 at 11:20 PM.

  12. #37
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    So if someone is six foot four but only 150 lbs soaking wet and his goals are to get big and strong...you don't think that advising him to eat lots and focus on the compounds as a starting point is any more relevant then advising him to to have an arm day as one?

    .
    Of course if he's 6'4" and weighs 150 then he needs to put on weight, but dpendinbg on how many days per week he can workout and if he is only concerned about cosmetics then an arm day can be implemented. Food should always be in the equation. Not saying compound movements aren't important by any means and he still needs them but it all depends on the person and the design of the program.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    That depends on how much chest and back work you have already done. Most back movements involve biceps to some degree and most chest work (excepting flyes and crossovers which aren't exactly known for building optimum mass or strength) involves triceps.
    I see how you can take this into account. I failed to mention that you shouldn't necessarily lock out on these movements. Especially chest, so you can minimize the bicep and tricep involvement. If you do this it puts more focus on your chest on chest day and also allows you to hit your bi's and tri's hard on arms day
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  14. #39
    Senior Member tnathletics2b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealDeal930 View Post
    I see how you can take this into account. I failed to mention that you shouldn't necessarily lock out on these movements. Especially chest, so you can minimize the bicep and tricep involvement. If you do this it puts more focus on your chest on chest day and also allows you to hit your bi's and tri's hard on arms day
    That is not a good reason for not locking out.

    Imagined conversation:

    Me: "Hey man, been watching your workout and noticed that you didn't lock out your bench. What gives?"
    Bro: "If I lockout my bench, then I can't do as many curls tomorrow in the squat rack. Duh, dude."
    Me: *facepalm*
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnathletics2b View Post
    That is not a good reason for not locking out.
    It depends on what you are training for. If you are bench pressing to get a higher bench or for powerlifting, lock out. if you are bench pressing to work your chest there is no need to lengthen the movement and take the pressure off of your pecs. I've also heard people not locking out because it's hard on the elbow joint.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    Of course if he's 6'4" and weighs 150 then he needs to put on weight, but dpendinbg on how many days per week he can workout and if he is only concerned about cosmetics then an arm day can be implemented. Food should always be in the equation. Not saying compound movements aren't important by any means and he still needs them but it all depends on the person and the design of the program.
    Given that in the hypothetical situation above that our lifter has limited time (as is the case for most real-world lifters), wouldn't it be better to just do some arm work after the compounds? Like biceps after chest and triceps after back, say? Since in this split the arm muscles would still be relatively fresh.

    Of course if one has a lot of free time an arm day could be implemented...but for people that need to put on weight and have limited time, it can easily become a distraction from the more important lifts that should be focused on if your goals are to gain mass and strength like squat, deadlift, bench, row and dip. Not to mention that if recovery is poor and volume is a tad high...it can interfere with these more important lifts. Now if you are an advanced lifter and you want to squeeze out every little last bit of size an arm day might well be called for. But I don't think a beginner or even intermediate needs a day for arms to themselves. Doing them after the compounds should provide enough stimulus (given that the compounds have already provided a good deal of said stimulus themselves.)

  17. #42
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    To the OP -
    When I first started back into lifting, I did a bb type split and had and arms day. Initially, I'd have to check my initial measurements, but I think I put on about 1.5 inches on each arm in less than a year. Then the gains came really slowly. I had to add alot more body mass in order for my arms to get bigger.

    I trained 12 or so sets for both bis and tris and I'd do some really heavy weight, low reps; medium weight, medium reps and some light weight, high reps to mix it up.

    After several years of very little gains, I dropped the direct bicep work (except every once in a while) and concentrated on eating and doing the big, compound lifts - squats, deads, bench, bent rows, dips, pullups, etc. with some extra tricep work.

    With everything said and done, it got to the point that I just had to add body weight in order to get my arms bigger. Both of mine are just over 18" - eating is key.
    Give chalk a chance.


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