fwiw, I'm just making a statement. I'm not making a stance or assuming this is what you're suggesting... it just reads that way.
but who said anything about sleeping 16 hours? And yes, for those who are working out sporadically, training at night, mid-day and sometimes in the morning - this might not be the best approach if you're trying to do it as laid out.plus who can sleep most of 16 hours per day? I wish. Seems like you also need a consistent workout schedule, which I do not have.
Definition of Dogma:a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative.
It's turned into dogma because research doesn't prove one's metabolism to be improved by multiple meals.
Thermogenesis in humans after varying meal time frequency
Meal frequency and energy balance
Lyle wrote extensively about this paper HERE.
then, the most recent paper I know of
Increased meal frequency does not promote greater weight loss in subjects who were prescribed an 8-week equi-energetic energy-restricted diet.
You simply lost weight because you maintained a deficit... Many others are fasting and losing weight AND retaining lean mass just like all those eating every 2.386958 hours. It's just like someone mentioned earlier. There are countless ways to skin a cat. Find what works for you and what you like and stick with it.I did it, it works. Done deal...
The best diet is the diet you can adhere to.
A recent study actually shows three meals being superior to six meals in terms of satiety and fullness. That's pure gold during dieting.
Great Article once again Martin.
I've been following your tribulations for a bit.
I think I remember you posting in another article or interview that you regularly consume up to 100 kCal of milk in your coffee several times during the fast. I also recall an old thread from 2007 or so on Lyle's forum where he was indicating that a PSMF-like diet would effectively mimic fasting.
I've tried IF for a week or two at a time for a few weeks interspersed with a week or two of UD2.0 since about February. The approach has worked pretty well, I went from 6'2" ~230lbs, ~15%BF to ~208lbs ~9-10% BF. I'm looking to get down to a minimum of 200 lbs, which should put me at about 5-7% BF, just to see where the body has veins :-). I really like the flexibility IF affords, especially compared to a very rigid program like UD2.0.
Although I am using Ephedrine/Caffeine, I find hunger is often a problem from the 10-12th hour of the fasting period. Increasing the protein consumption just before bedtime seems to help somewhat, but some hunger pangs remain. I find 20-40g of whey/casein powder every 3-5 hours during the fast abates my hunger pretty well.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you think the (slight?) impact of the protein on insulin and other hormones would be sufficient to disrupt the fasting response?
Last edited by SteelWeaver; 06-29-2010 at 02:03 PM.
I've been doing Intermittent Fasting for about 2 years now and I'm never going back to trying to eat 5-6 small meals. I love IF - the energy high during fasting, the nutrient partitioning, the big meals while maintaining caloric goals - all things I love about IF.
The biggest thing to remember is IF is a tool, not an end all be all. You can't eat everything and anything and not exercise and expect to get in shape.
That being said, IF can REALLY compliment proper training. Once I got my training on track I was adding muscle and losing fat, and this was all while I wasn't 100% with my diet. The nutrient partitioning effect can be pretty powerful in some people. And when you specifically diet, not only is maintaining a caloric deficit easier, but lean mass is much easier to hold on to. I've seen studies showing growth hormone is increased during the fast, which probably helps hold onto muscle while allowing fat burning to go on unabated.
It's also nice to not worry about eating for the first half of the day. I can focus on other things without stopping to eat or having to constantly have food around. I'm also much more in tune with my hunger response from eating like this. Because of the nature of grehlin, once you adapt to eating like this you'll only be hungry when it's time to start eating.
Overall, only good things to say about IF. I urge anyone who's used to eating the traditional bodybuilding diet, or stuck in the mindset that things have to be this way, to try it and at least realize it does still work even if it's not for you.
Also to whoever asked if they think bodybuilders could get where they are today with this approach, I absolutely believe they could. In fact I think they'd possibly be further along using this technique. Hell just look at Martin's condition.
Must say that the IF-protocol is the best that ever happend to me when it comes to training and diet.
Ok! Finding out about HD, Abberivated WO´s and HIT some 15 years ago comes close but this is no. 1 since IF gives me the chance to both enjoy food in a relax state of mind and keep in shape all year around.
I´m having 2 meals a day were meal 1 is the post WO meal and 7 hrs later I´m having a large dinner.
Always train in a fasted state with app. 15 g BCAA in the system. I also start the day with 15 g BCAA.
Combined with a low volume strenght protocol and some HiiT I feel in supershape even though I´m almost 46.
So my tip to all of you trainees outthere: Go for IF! You wont regret it in the long term.
Last edited by Ministry1965; 06-30-2010 at 12:11 AM.
I'm very intrigued by this article and IF in general. I've always struggled to get the 5 - 6 meal thing right and I think this will greatly ease my nutritional concerns. I'm excited to give this approach a try.
Height 6ft 1"
Current Weight 200lbs
200lbs @ 10%bf
With a little from:
Advice from WBB members
Originally Posted by Built
Also for anyone reading this thread who doesn't like the idea of fasting or doesn't want to go that long without food, then simply take from this article/thread that meal frequency isn't that important. In other words, you don't have to do a 16/8 fast/feed cycle or whatever, but you can relax if you only get 3 or 4 meals instead of stressing over trying to get the 5 to 6 meals in (some people suggest up to 8... Do they do anything else besides eat all day? Hahaha). I think the mental energy wasted on something as pointless as getting every meal in for the day is very excessive, especially when research is showing no benefit. Just seems like a waste of people's thought power, IMO.
Though I personally have not consulted Martin on my IF approach, I have learned everything from him by reading his blog from start to finish including a majority of the comments.
A little over 6 months ago I started eating Paleo Nutrition style, I was sitting around 170lbs of a short (5'6") and stocky muscle and fat. Due to personal reasons, I stopped working out and eating very clean paleo style dropped my weight down to an unhealthily 135lbs in a matter of a couple months. Tons of muscle mass as well as fat dropped off while following the Paleo Nutrition lifestyle along with my own form of IF as in I ate whenever I felt like it which was like once a day probably only consuming 800-1200 calories at most. I felt excellent from eating the clean paleo style foods but I knew this was just not an healthy lifestyle to be sedentary and eating so little not matter how clean.
A little over 3 months ago I decided to get back into my passions of strength training and nutritrion. Throughout my life since 7th grade I have always been in some form of strength training program for baseball football and hockey. Then in college I decided to join the cheerleading squad for a large Big 10 University and was in decent shape through all of that. So my base and knowledge of many different routines styled to quite a few different sports and activities was there. However, i decided to pick up a few books, specifically Supertraining, Science and Practice of Strength Training, Starting Strength, New Rules of Lifting and also read Martin's entire blog (could not afford his consultation at the time), Alan Aragon's work, and Lyle McDonald's work.
I devised my own strength training program of sticking to the basic compound movement exercises 5x4-8 of all barbell work: squats, deadlifts, standing overhead military, bench press, incline press, bent over rows. A lot of what I do I learned from Martin as well in the sense that I do not worry about the accessory exercises and focus on compound movements. However I am not currently on a high-intensity approach. I train fasted with 10g of BCAAs beforehand (per Martin's recommendations and research study he provided) and have never felt stronger. THat was it.
I devised my own nutrition program based on what I learned from Martin, Alan, and Lyle. The Paleo nutrition lifestyle had its merits while I could afford it, but at the moment I find that I am not sensitive to grains nor carbs and find my strength and weight climb up really nicely in a high carb/high protein/low-moderate fat routine. I strongly believe the IF approach provides wonderful insulin sensitivity with its nutrient repartitioning effects.
I came into the IF approach from a different perspective than a lot of others on this approach as I wanted to put on as much weight as fast as possible while limiting bodyfat gain. Going from 140lbs to current sitting at 164lbs a little over 65 days into my strength training and IF approach with no increase in pant sizes and no increase using two different bodyfat calipars using the Jackson-Pollock 3 Point skinfodl measure. I usually fast for 16-20 hours and drink Yerba Mate tea throughout the day.
My IF approach is quite loose in terms of food and hours. I usually work form 9-5, train fasted every other day from 5:30-7 or so and start my eating window around 7:30-8pm and finish around 12. I eat tons of "unhealthy" stuff such as sugary cereals (just love em), lots and lots of plain bagels, pasta, lots of protein, and some healthy fats. My postworkout meal is around 2500 calories with around 300g carbs and lots of protein. After postworkout I jstu eat whenever I am hungry again which is usually within the hour or two. Pre-bed I have a lot of milk, casein, cottage cheese, eggs with some fats such as coconut oil, almond butter, almonds. I usually have a cheat day about 2 days a week also which includes whole pizzas with the works, (unlike Martin I have a ice cream and cookie fetish instead of cheesecake) a pint of B&J's and possibly 2 large cookies (1200 calories each or so) totaling around 6,000-6500 calories. Though I do not suggest this, I have been putting on lots of muscle mass without moving the bodyfat calipars up at all on the IF approach.
If you want to see some of the psychological and physical benefits I had on Intermittent Fasting before my recent mass building phase, I actually did a blog post on Intermittent Fasting on my blog (post is here, delete if links are not allowed: http://lifedestiny.net/intermittent-...to-lose-weight Some of the guidelines in that post have changed since I have changed my approach to IFing a little bit.
I can truly attribute a lot of my progress to what I have learned from Martin at LeanGains.com and am thinking of setting up a consultation with him whenever I can afford it.
Below is my current progress. I am now at 164lbs at a little over 65 days from the first picture. I have never had abs before IFing but the top 4 are showing through on this lean mass building phase. The abs are solid from top to the bottom from just strictly heavy deadlifts, squats, weightup pushups and chinups. My body is solid all around with veins popping out everywhere shoulders, over the lats, down over the ribs, at the V spot above the crotch. Two different bodyfat calipars using the 3-point Jackson-Pollock method show bodyfat quite low though it may not be entirely accurate it does tel me week to week and month-month if my bodyfat is going up or down and so far while IFing on my lean mass builinng phase it has not gone up and might have actually dropped a little. Over 20lbs of lean mass in a little over 60 days possible? The only explanation in my mind is the IF approach and my previous base and years of strength training. I am also quite an easy gainer if I incorporate heavy weights.
I also run a blog and will be doing a post on all of my setup for those of you who are interested can PM me for a link, unless I can link here on WannaBeBig?
Last edited by tjm5054; 06-30-2010 at 09:18 AM.
This is a great article for the site and I love the info being shared in it and this thread. This thread alone has brought several more registered users to the site sharing their story here in this thread.
Nice work WBB Admin.
My question is while trying to adhere to the IF approach. Would it be benifical to take the small supplements of BCAA's talked about during the fasting period, like after I wake up?
I usually eat from around 9/10 AM - 6/7 pm and fast from 6/7 PM - 9/10 AM.
Last edited by depotman; 06-30-2010 at 09:55 AM.
I take my BCAA's, workout 11:30-12:30, then have my first meal at 1PM
If you worked out earlier in the day you could take BCAA's pre and post workout to stay in the fasted state (BCAA's at 8, workout, BCAAs at 10 or something, start eating at 12-1)
5'10", 170lbs, 10% bf
Bench:255 Squat:295 Dead:400
Snatch:145 C&J: 205
Chin-Up: +135 Dip: +100
Max Pull-Ups: 44
CrossFit Lv. 1, ACE-CPT
You want our weapons!? Come and get them!
Yeah I was unaware of WBB until Mr. Zielonka's excellent write-up on IF. Subscribed to RSS and looking forward to what more of WBB has to offer as I have a complete open mind to everything health and nutrition.
As far as taking BCAAs during the fasting period, as per the above post, I do not believe it is really necessary unless you train and do not want to start your workout window until a few hours after workout.
Well done, tjm5054. That's 20 lbs lean mass in 8 weeks (?). Body fat did not increase by an ounce as far as I can see.
Last edited by Martin Berkhan; 06-30-2010 at 06:18 PM.
1. 10 g BCAA before fasted lifting followed by the pwo-meal (see fasted training protocol in guide) http://leangains.blogspot.com/2010/0...ins-guide.html
2. 10 g BCAA before fasted lifting, and in 2 hour intervals before the pwo-meal (see early fasted training protocol in the guide). Or see the article I wrote specifically for that protocol: http://leangains.blogspot.com/2010/0...-training.html
Last edited by Martin Berkhan; 06-30-2010 at 06:22 PM.
Bodyfat has not moved up at all according to 2 different calipars using the basic Jackson Pollock 3 Point Method. Have never seen my abs before and now the top 4 are starting to pop through just slightly. Obliques are pretty much muscle with some veins going though them over the rib cage. Bottom ab area is pretty much a solid rock with little amounts of bodyfat overtop hiding the more defined look, which the picture does not do justice. I completely expect not to look like a chiseled sculpture when I am putting on mass and strength in a rapid pace. I figure once I start stalling I will dial into a more maintenance IF approach and probably will get into contact with you in order to see how low I can take my bodyfat % while maintaining/increasing strength.
I have never posted on here.This is my first time,and i believe i am not the best with words.That being said,In response to depotmans post.I am a 50 yr old bodybuilder(natural)and in my yrs of experience(too many)i have noticed that the human body,weather genitically or or for whatever reason tends to have a comfortable or preferred wt,also muscle seems to have memory.Over the yrs i have worked out on and off and i have gotten fatter and skinnier from time to time,(mostly fatter),but it does seem that when i begin to get in shape again.Ihave a much easier time returning to a certain weight and mass.It almost seems that it was genetically decided long ago.I am sure there are other factors,like the amount of physical work I do (i am a welder so i am lfting heavy steel and very active anyway)It is when i try to get past those heavier or lighter wts that my body seems to ......argue.iI believe "if" is very interesting and after my next contest ,i am definately going to give it a try,but there is a good chance that depotmans genetic memory,had some thing to do with his return to his old self,I am just pointing out the experience of an old bodybuilder,I did not want to ruffle any feathers or start trouble ,just something more to think about
as i dont work out in the am! do you have to do fasted training? or say could you have first meal at 1ish then another at 6ish train at 7ish and have the bigest meal at 9? and what kind of meals are we looking at say scrambled eggs for meal one big tuna sandwhich meal two and some lean meat and veggies meal three?
I've never followed IF as a main dieting strategie, but I have restricted myself from food for most of the day so that I could splurge a little in the evening and still hit my overall diet numbers and it is possible.
You just gotta keep busy and try not to think about food and as with anything you just get used to it. I find it fairly easy now not to eat anything right through to 4pm and I wake at 7am - hot teas, coke zeros help too
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