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Thread: "Growth Principles for Beginners"

  1. #26
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    If nothing else, the workout is sound and should work for a lot of different people (sauced or not).
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  2. #27
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle2291 View Post
    I don't think we can really debate whether it seems silly or not when none of us here besides Jay have any experience with AAS. Of the guys I know on juice, all of them are eating massive amounts of protein.
    A lot of guys on juice also eat 6 meals a day to increase their metabolisms or try to work their "inner chests". So there are a lot of things I can say that are silly - juice or not :P

    I think that much protein is favorable with someone eating like 6k cals a day like Coleman did or most other guys that got that much in. But they are already huge and going for Mr.O. For a beginner, or the majority of people (even if they are on roids) its just not needed.
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  3. #28
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    If nothing else, the workout is sound and should work for a lot of different people (sauced or not).
    I think thats a pretty good take home message.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

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  4. #29
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fanelli View Post
    There is no established upper limit for protein, and its very unlikely that taking in more than enough will have any unfavorable effects. Of the three macronutrients, people are far more likely to take in too much carbs and fat, NEVER too much protein. .
    Yea, I agree people do take in more fat and carbs than is always needed - especially on a bulk. But too much protein gets stored as fat also if the Calorie range is too far above actual needs or hormones actual abilities to retain or add muscle...artificial or not.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fanelli View Post
    Regardless of AAS or not, everyone that doesn't a contraindication should be taking in just about as much protein as possible. There is no established upper limit for protein, and its very unlikely that taking in more than enough will have any unfavorable effects. Of the three macronutrients, people are far more likely to take in too much carbs and fat, NEVER too much protein.

    The only possible reason I can see for not taking in more protein would be if its preventing you from getting enough calories (or carbs/fat). Protein is filling, and for some of us with fast metabolisms, 500g of protein a day might not allow enough total caloric intake.

    But ya, people dont put enough stock in the value of high protein diets.
    While high protein diets are (IMHO) necessary for taking bodybuilding as far as possible, these diets have been linked to calcium loss in bone as well as other negative side effects. Granted some can be avoided simply by increasing water intake...but others can't. So yes it is possible to take in too much. As for the 500 grams of protein that sounds both expensive and unnessary (at least for those who are not on gear) .

    Ever hear of Dr. Peter Lemon? He is one of the leading researchers in this field. Here's one of the studies he did. Sure it deals with cyclists and not bodybuilders but it's still applicable.

    http://www.cptips.com/protein.htm

    More is not always better sometimes it is just more and sometimes it is just too much. Notice that they found no benefit in terms of nitrogen balance at a higher protein level than 2.62 per KILOGRAM of body mass (which is slightly more than one gram per pound.) Based on that it would seem the 500 grams per day is a bit excessive.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 05-19-2011 at 09:22 PM.

  6. #31
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    @ Song - I agree with most of that. I dont know about the side effects of too much protein. Maybe in rare situations with certain populations its a possiblity, but just not very likely. Still, the negatives of the other two macros are much more likely and more serious.

    But ya, I think 500g a day would be excessive for 99.99% of the population, us all included. But I also think most people could benefit in one way or another from upping their protein intake.

    From the other thread today, I posted:

    "There are a lot of factors here. Some people prefer to use 1-1.5 g per lb of LEAN MASS, which might work better if you aren't that lean. Another way you can figure it, is take your total calorie needs, fat needs, carb needs, and everything else is protein.

    You can also look at protein intake in terms of % of diet. It sounds counter-intuitive, but the leaner you are and the more active you are, the lower the amount of protein you need in terms of %. So fatter, less active individuals need a larger percentage of their diet to be protein, and less to be carbs and fat, but overall just less calories all around."

    Exs: A fairly innactive average person taking in 2000kcals a day might want to aim for 40-50% of their calories from protein, and then about 30% from fat and 20% from carbs.

    But someone on this site that is leaner and works out a lot taking in 3500 kcals might only take in 30-40% from protein, and 30-40% from carbs, and the rest from fat.

    But ya, a bb'er on "gear" taking in 5000+ kcals taking in 500g of protein might only be 40% or less from protein.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    So this is aimed at those wanting to break into the pro ranks then?
    Wouldn't guys that have made it that far have a pretty good idea of what is required already and not need an internet article written by who knows who?
    I'm pretty confused by this statement. Of course this isnt only aimed at those wanting to break into the pro ranks because 99.99999999% of the bodybuilders out there will never turn pro. Thats just unrealistic thinking. This is for anyone who wants to take this as far as possible who isnt seeing the type of results they want at the moment.


    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle2291 View Post
    Wait, so the guy advises never to come off orals except if blood health indicates a risk of issues? But then he seems to contradict himself when he says "but when you do come off the gear." Idk, seems a little conflicting to me. I know next to nothing of gear use, however.

    I like the routine also. Always like the HIT style training routines. Works best for me.


    Is a blood screening going to show liver damage from constant oral use? I know only the basics of gear so I really don't know.


    Also, I'm guessing this is aimed at a guy who is a beginner to gear and gear training?
    Certain blood tests can show liver problems, yes. So what hes saying is to cycle the orals 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off as long as you have no problems.

    He does say later in the thread the only time to come off is once gains stop. If you stop gaining, he recommends to come off of everything for a few months and then once you jump back on you'll begin growing past that stalled point from the last cycle. It wasn't included in the initial write up though so good question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    Gear or no gear, a lot of what he said is valid. I enjoyed the article.
    At least someone enjoyed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Well, if you're eating 6000 some Calories - sure, you're going to approach 500 grams of protein by simply hitting a macro range. But thats pretty meaningless advice unless the person following it is already 280+ lbs and already competing to be a mr. O. I would think you'd want to start lower and build up as needed rather than consume a diet that Ronnie Coleman followed when he won Mr. O. He also had around 500-600 grams. Grams of protein should reflect muscle mass / experience level in my opinion. Its weird to just blindly suggest 500 grams.
    He just said shoot for 500. So 500 is on the high end. A smaller guy might be aiming for 500 but only be able to eat 400.


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  8. #33
    Determined jAy_Dub's Avatar
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    Here ya go Off Road. When guys should start using gear (if thats the road they want to take)

    "The right time to start gear is when you have done everything right (training, nutrition and rest) and you stop making gains. You have to realise that gear doesn't make up for sloppy training, dieting and rest practices. All that gear does is enhance them.
    So you first goal is to make sure you train properly (this includes making sure you have the mind/body connection - learn what physical failure and mental failure are), to make sure you eat properly on a consistent basis (VERY important) and that you rest adequately on a consistent basis too.
    Once you mastered all those, and then you stagnate, that is when you should start the gear.

    This is what I tell everyone that is thinking about starting gear or using 'strong' gear' too soon - you will get a certain level of development natural. When that stops, add gear. When it stops again, add GH. When it stops again, add insulin. When it stops again, add Syntherol, etc. If one was to take all the gear he could plus GH plus insulin plus Syntherol right from the start, what is he going to do/take when all this stops working? He will be stuck. Sure he will get quicker short term results, but in the long run he will have less overall results than one that did it gradually and inteligently."


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  9. #34
    Determined jAy_Dub's Avatar
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    More information regarding the training...




    One thing that you have to understand is that it's not about how many sets you do but it's about how much time under tension the muscle is.
    When i do a set, I do 3 seconds in the negative, 1 second in the stretched position, 1 to 2 seconds in the positive with 1 second in the contracted position. That is up to 7 seconds per rep -sometimes I slow it even more. Extremelly painful.
    Each set is done to 100% PHYSICAL failure - your mind will tell you to stop way before the body actually fails.
    Each set is so intense, it takes up to 5 minutes just to recover from it.
    Most people don't have the balls to properly train this way, that's why they say they tried it and nothing happened. Nothing happened because they didn't do it properly. Even the ones that they think that they did it properly, once they do a workout with me they realise they didn't even come close!
    Every person that trains with me and keeps up, gets phenomenal gains, naturally or not.


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  10. #35
    Determined jAy_Dub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fanelli View Post
    Looks a little extreme to me. The 500g of protein might be a good target for people to aim for, but I wouldn't say its necessary. And whats up with this line, "Fats and carbs don't matter. Calories don't count, macro nutrients (protein, fat, carb) do."

    When you get that extreme, its hard to not contradict yourself I guess?
    He later says that it suppose to read "fats and carbs DO matter."

    I'll change it in the original post so people dont get confused.


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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAy_Dub View Post
    He later says that it suppose to read "fats and carbs DO matter."

    I'll change it in the original post so people dont get confused.
    Thanks for the fix, makes much more sense now. I'd pretty much agree with what he says now. I still think calories DO matter, just not as much as everyone tries to make them out to be.

    It was a good read, but just a strange article considering the target audience.

  12. #37
    OG SDS's Avatar
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    I've never tried a routine like this......I've always had decent success with a multi-set push/pull program. I think I might give it a whirl for a few months. I'm at the end of a fairly successful cut, so when I start eating again I think I'll try it.

  13. #38
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAy_Dub View Post
    Here ya go Off Road. When guys should start using gear.
    Sorry for the confusion. When he said "beginners" I thought it was lousy advice to tell beginners to use steroids. Then you said it was for "beginners in the bodybuilding world". I naturally assumed that meant guys that have went as far as they could go naturally, like the top natural guys that want to take it to the next step and look for their pro card.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDS View Post
    I've never tried a routine like this......I've always had decent success with a multi-set push/pull program. I think I might give it a whirl for a few months. I'm at the end of a fairly successful cut, so when I start eating again I think I'll try it.
    The article states this, but it worth mentioning again. This will only work if you reach true, 100%, physical failure. Many people do not know what he means...

    A great video to watch are any with Dusty Hanshaw...

    Fast forward to about 4:47, this is Dusty's training partner....on his 2nd rep, he BARELY gets it...hell I would have thought I hit failure or no way in hell I would have gotten another rep...but he fights, and fights, and fights some more and gets another rep...this is true muscular failure. It is only when you can lift like these guys, that you can make gains on a 1 set per movement type of program. Most of us would have called it after the 2nd rep.

    Last edited by mchicia1; 05-20-2011 at 01:50 PM.

  15. #40
    Determined jAy_Dub's Avatar
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    Great point and good vid bro. Makes me wanna start up DC training again.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jAy_Dub View Post
    Great point and good vid bro. Makes me wanna start up DC training again.
    Thanks...I love DC videos.

    I hope to one day be able to successfully run that program. My intensity has gotten better, but no where near where these guys are. I think having a training partner helps a lot in that department.
    Last edited by mchicia1; 05-20-2011 at 02:19 PM.

  17. #42
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    I see a lot of kids at my gym fight that hard on their reps...all the time. But they never eat enough to weigh more than 135 lbs.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

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  18. #43
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    A little bit of clarification may have been helpful, if the article was in fact aimed at 'beginner' bodybuilders meaning someone who plans to step on stage in the near future then I could understand his recommendations a bit more.

    I do like his point about reaching exhaustion - there is nothing like grinding out that last rep and then dropping the weight and keeping the set going. I believe that is one of the key factors in achieving the size/strength that I have thus far.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mutaffis View Post
    A little bit of clarification may have been helpful, if the article was in fact aimed at 'beginner' bodybuilders meaning someone who plans to step on stage in the near future then I could understand his recommendations a bit more.

    I do like his point about reaching exhaustion - there is nothing like grinding out that last rep and then dropping the weight and keeping the set going. I believe that is one of the key factors in achieving the size/strength that I have thus far.
    Sorry, I should have included all of the information and clarifications before posting this over here. I've read through all of his posts so many times that I thought it was all included in the original write up.


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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAy_Dub View Post
    The
    muscle will not begin to recover until the nervous
    system is recovered. It takes roughly 24hours for the
    nervous system to recover from a workout. Only then
    will the muscle begin to recover and grow. So, you
    should never train 2 days in a row. Even if you train
    different bodyparts, you still use the same nervous
    system. You train 2 days in a row, your nervous system
    recovers, but by the time the muscles begin to, you
    train again, so the body has to concentrate again on
    recovering the nervous system.
    Is this true? That would mean all the proven 4-5 day routines out there are inefficient..

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by greemah View Post
    Is this true? That would mean all the proven 4-5 day routines out there are inefficient..
    For natural lifters, 3 is best, 4 is okay for some, but 5 is pushing it.
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  22. #47
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    It makes sense guys....think about how crappy you feel the next day after deads. I know, even if I have upper body, no way I will be able to push the weight I am capable of. Now if you are doing volume training, then that is different IMO....you can probably get away with 5 days a week.

  23. #48
    Senior Member ZAR-FIT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAy_Dub View Post
    You guys have to remember here, this is written by a PROFESSIONAL Bodybuilder. Of course everything is going to be pretty extreme. To build a extreme physique, you have to do extreme things.

    I dont know how closely you guys pay attention to some of the bigger guys diets, but 500 grams of protein is completely normal for a dude 250+ lbs.

    Also, I'm pretty sure when he says "beginner" he doesnt mean someone picking up a weight for the first time. Someone doing this for 5 years could still be considered a beginner. I'm still in that beginner category.

    This isnt aimed at someone who wants to look good for the ladies or good strolling down the beach in the summer time. This is targeted to the guys who compete and want to take things as far as they can.

    "Beginner" in competition standards is completely different than a beginner to casual lifting.
    Sounds like Dorian Yates...
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  24. #49
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZAR-FIT View Post
    Sounds like Dorian Yates...
    I wonder who else mentioned that?


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